Ask Tamara Part Two.

This is an interesting kind of discussion... this was a woman who is horrified by BDSM in every sense of the word. At least, any kind of BDSM that doesn't involve rabbit fur floggers and submissive worship. *sigh* Life is so infinite... the possibilities are so infinite... that at this point I just feel sorry for someone like this whose mind I can never change.  Further, even if I cannot change it, I'd like to open it up a little bit... to the POSSIBILITY... that BDSM (even pain and humiliation) can be, for some, fun, enlightening, spiritual, and loving, even if it does not appear so on the surface.  One day maybe people in this country will stop trying to tell everyone else how to have sex. In the meanwhile... *sigh*... again, any updates to my thoughts are in fleshy pink!

It is unfortunate in life there are many masters who abuse their privilege. They take advantage. The little I have read about D/s relationships shows this as well. I find this to be disturbing. I adore doing things that make the man in my life happy. I've often said I would go to the ends of the earth for a man I love. The truth is that I would expect him to have enough love for me to do the same. Would you share with me your basic philosophies on this subject, please.

With my Master, to whom i had submitted and consented to be used for his pleasure, if he did NOT take advantage of me... it would have hurt me ENORMOUSLY. i wanted him to make use of all of my talents, all of ME in every way possible, to please HIM. that means using me sexually, using me intellectually to have a conversation, using whatever skills i may have, that please him to be used. this makes me feel GOOD... not bad or taken advantage of in the sense that you mean... a D/s relationship is a different context, we're taking the world as you know it and SHIFTING it a bit. things just don't mean the same things in the D/s world as they do in the 'nilla world. i have BEEN in vanilla relationships where i was used... i NEVER liked it. that was being used in a way that had NOTHING to do with ME or fulfilling me in any way; that had only to do with the fact that i had *something* that someone wanted, period. it's just a different thing, and i'm not sure if i'm explaining it so that you can understand it, but i can tell you from having experienced BOTH of them, that they are COMPLETELY different. one fills you with anger and anguish, and the other fills you with joy and happiness. night and day.

This was definitely true and I believe that were I in an extreme BDSM relationship, would still hold true. As it stands now, it's enough for me to be allowing my mind to be venturing out on its own, discussing it with C, and watching his joy and pride in me. :)  Gosh I'm kind of ridiculously happy these days, can you tell? *blink!*

"I believe it is through love that we gain self-respect and humility, not humiliation. I have a real problem with that aspect of the D/s relationship. Humiliation only serves to break down a person's self-esteem. Without a good self-image how can one live to theirp otential?"

i've already covered the humiliation topic to a degree by saying that i personally do not experience anything even resembling humiliation very often... and when i do, it's something to get past, not something that destroys me or hurts me in any way. being owned means that you are your Master's possession... you know that he would only own something that is beautiful, wonderful, and admirable... why else would he bother? there is nothing about submission that hurts your self-esteem, or should, anyways. i have never in my life felt stronger, better about myself as a person, more secure in who and what i am.

as for humility... lets look at the webster's definition of "humble."

1 : not proud or haughty : not arrogant or assertive
2 : reflecting, expressing, or offered in a spirit of deference or submission
3 a : ranking low in a hierarchy or scale : INSIGNIFICANT, UNPRETENTIOUS

there's parts ot his definition that i see as being desireable and parts that i do not... i do not consider myself insignificant in ANY way, or ranking low on any hierarchy EXCEPT in deference to my Master. i am humble towards him, and not particularly humble towards anyone else; unless it is in a specific context where i know for a fact that person has more knowledge and experience in a specific area than i do, and i can learn from them. on the other hand, i am not arrogant, because i have no need to exaggerate myself... i am who i am... period. i love myself, i please my Master, and anyone who disagrees or doesn't find those things and qualities in me, is entitled to their opinion, which is completely irrelevant to me.

Hmmmmm, this is an interesting one, as my views on humiliation have been soo stretched in recent years.   Not only by my own experiences but by talking to others far more involved in erotic humiliation than I am. Throw into this mix the fact that during the last six months of the relationship I'm writing about above, my self esteem absolutely WAS hurting.

Currently my feelings on humiliation are... well... really involved, I might need to write on this issue  separately. But suffice to say for NOW, that the purpose of BDSM is not supposed to be to destroy someone... but to make them stronger, strengthen their self, and help them grow in their humanity.... er, that's aside from all that fun sex stuff. ;) There were many things I did then, and do now, that others consider humiliating and I did/do not.  There were some that were humiliating. Very few caused me "harm" until the relationship started to deteriorate. At the current time, if my Master humiliates me... it is just fun and sexy for me as I am utterly secure in his love for me and his love for my SELF, both inside and out.

Pain, please oh please explain what that is about. In my opinion, love should not hurt, it should feel like heaven. I have worked with children most of my life. I began baby-sitting at the age of eleven, have two children of my own, and have taught little people for 14 years now. I have never seen good come from pain. I have seen gentle touching, (hugs) bring children to life.

Please oh please don't ever bring the concept of children into a D/s context... they have NO PLACE in this conversation, NONE. You cannot even compare a submissive to a child; a submissive is someone who is a competent adult making a choice based on what he/she knows about herself... a child is not capable of such a choice.

That said, pain... I've learned that there are infinite varieties of pain, and infinite ways that pain is used in D/s relationships. Pain can be used as an erotic tool only, or it can also be used as a disciplinary tool, or it might not be used ANY way at all, and the forms that pain may take are literally infinite. For me, i am NOT a masochist... BUT at the same time in a wierd kind of way i do "enjoy" taking pain. SOME forms of erotic pain i do actually enjoy, tho i am really and truly a pain WUSS and those are pretty few and far between. :)

i have also found that pain can be an amazing release... of tension, of stress, of anger, of a zillion different emotional things that i know i, and probably LOTS of other people, keep bottled up inside and have a very hard time letting go of. this is something i have a very very hard time asking specifically for, but am always glad when it's done because i feel soooooooooo much better.

Why would tying a woman up bring pleasure? To bind and gag a woman is not an act of love in my opinion. For goodness sakes how can she love you if she cannot move? How can she express words of endearment and encouragement if she cannot speak? I cannot fathom this concept.

i'm guessing you've never been tied up, and all i can say is... i LOVE being tied up and it is a humongous act of love in and of itself... no words are necessary. i'm sort of curious why you think that *words* or *gestures* are the best ways to express love... isn't love best expressed by your actions? anyone can SAY "i love you." i am sure almost everyone on the planet has heard those words at LEAST once from someone who was completely inauthentic. but to DO it... much more intense, much more meaningful, in my opinion.

first of all, the trust implicit in surrendering yourself to someone; allowing them to immobilize you and take full control of you physically, placing yourself in their hands... is an intense act of trust and for me, expression of love. second, there is an enormous appeal, at least for me, in that literal lack of control. for me submission is all about being controlled, that is what i love and what i crave and need, and bondage is just a very literal expression that i am under Master's control. (pain is another way of expressing CONTROL, btw.) third, to me even if no submission were involved, i think bondage is incredibly erotic... due to the level of trust involved, and the fact that when you are tied up.. if this makes sense... it's harder to hold yourself back from reacting to EVERYTHING you feel... be it a sharp spank or a gentle caress. blindfolded, your senses focus inwards; on all the sensations that your body is feeling... you are not looking around the room thinking that you need to do laundry or do whatever, you are not thinking about anything else... all your focus is inside, and on your Master's hands touching you, or whatever tool he may be touching you with. you don't know what will come next, so there is an element of suspense as well, and you are just *there*... FEELING him.

You stated...."With my Master, to whom i have submitted and consented to be used for his pleasure, if he did NOT take advantage of me... it would hurt me ENORMOUSLY. i want him to make use of all of my talents, all of ME in every way possible, to please HIM. that means using me sexually, using me intellectually to have a conversation, using whatever skills i may have, that please him to be used."

My questions come in with the "verbiage" we are using. I am struggling with the word "used." I read it in a negative sense. I'm not saying this is fair or correct, but it is the way I read it. I did some checking on the word "used" It has many meanings depending on the manner it is "used" in. *smile* This is only one that I found. I feel it gives a broad sense of the meaning.

use (yz)
v. used, using, uses.
v. tr.
To put into service or apply for a purpose; employ.
To avail oneself of; practice: use caution.
To conduct oneself toward; treat or handle: “the peace offering of a man who once used you unkindly” (Laurence Sterne).
To seek or achieve an end by means of; exploit: used their highly placed friends to gain access to the president; felt he was being used by seekers of favor.
To take or consume; partake of: She rarely used alcohol.
v. intr. (ys, yst)
Used in the past tense followed by to in order to indicate a former state, habitual practice, or custom: Mail service used to be faster.

Here are some examples of how i am "using" the word "used," in this context Teri.

"Master uses me to provide him with pleasure, which gives ME pleasure."
"Master uses my skill at organization to ensure that mundane tasks are fulfilled to his requirements, which pleases him, which gives ME pleasure."
"Master makes use of my snuggly self to keep him warm at night."

"use" here to me means just that. just like you would "use" a chair to sit upon. yes it is objectifying. degrading? no. humiliating? not even close. :)

to me it means that my skills in ALL areas, straight across the board, must be improved upon (ie: i myself must grow) in order to please him more, and become more and more useful TO him. useful for having an intelligent conversation with, useful for snuggling, or WHATEVER it might be.

there is a HUGE difference between being used in a way that provides mutual benefit, as in a Master/slave relationship, and used against your will in a way that is degrading or a "taking away from."

example:
"my ex-boyfriend USED me. he did not love me; he just wanted my car, my house, my money, my body."

i have been there too, and i know the difference. one makes me happy; benefits me, and helps me grow. the other makes me miserable... takes away from who i am.. is not about *me* at all. and btw, by this i don't mean to insinuate that i'm necessarily doing things... performing acts... that are things i *want* to do in and of themselves, when i am owned.  it is thru giving up self that there is for me, self-fulfillment... pleasing the one who owns me does in fact make me happy tho, and i do think that's a selfish thing to the extreme... one of those contradictions of slavery, i think.

I think that it is wonderful that through humiliation you have gained strength.

i've toldya and toldya but i guess you are not hearing me. i AM NOT HUMILIATED. nor have i ever FELT humiliated through serving. do you feel humiliated when you do something for someone you love? it's no different for me serving; the ONLY difference is that the love i feel extends to include EVEN MORE things to do for the one i love. it is a growing, an expanding upon.

I believe that we all operate and learn through our own "uniqueness."  I don't like to be humiliated, it takes away from the ME I wish to be. A happy, loving confident women. I steer away from people who do this to me.

i have yet to see anyone who knows me describe me as anything but happy, loving to the extreme, and confident. ;)

On the topic of "humility" you said, " i am humble towards him, and not particularly humble towards anyone else; unless it is in a specific context where i know for a fact that person has more knowledge and experience in a specific area than i do, and i can learn from them" Tamara, we really differ in this aspect. I believe that everyone has something special to share. I learn from children, from nature. The truth is I learn something from just about anyone who will share with me.

i did not say i don't LEARN from others... The question was "am i humble towards," and the answer is "no." Humility implies a "I feel you are better than me," in whatever context you may apply it to. Humility, a state of being humble... go look up "humble"

Humble:
1) not proud or haughty; not arrogant or assertive
2) reflecting, expressing, or offered in a spirit of deference or submission
3) ranking low in a hierarchy or scale: INSIGNIFICANT, UNPRETENTIOUS

My point here is that i am humble towards and thus submissive towards ONE. NOT everyone. You are telling me here in your own words that you are "submissive" towards everyone, while not understanding how i can be submissive towards one. Submission towards one is guided, focused, and a path of growth. Not being "humble towards" every tom dick and harry, does not mean that i cannot LEARN from others around me. Just that i do not consider them "better" then me or behave as such.

"You cannot even compare a submissive to a child; a submissive is someone who is a competent adult making a choice based on what he/she knows about herself... a child is not capable of such a choice." Tamara, we see thing differently again. I believe that children are very capable of making choices. Many times better choices than "adults" might make for them. I also believe that we all have a "child" who lives inside of us. To me we will always be our parents child and more importantly "children of God." My opinion.

i am not and would not ever deny the innate intelligence of children... Fact is that i grew up WAY before most children do, and at very young ages was making decisions that many adults would struggle with. However we are talking about a relationship which is involved with sexuality. And children have NO PLACE in that discussion as a comparison or as anything else.

Again the verbiage makes me uncomfortable...."i do not enjoy pain for the sake of pain itself; i enjoy it for the fact that it pleases the one who owns me"

v. owned, owning, owns.
v. tr.
To have or possess as property: owns a chain of restaurants.
To have control over: For a time, enemy planes owned the skies.
To admit as being in accordance with fact, truth, or a claim; acknowledge.

I don't see human beings as "property". The only real "truth" is possessed by God.. God is the only being that truly knows my heart. Again, my opinion.

try to see it this way; to me, my Master IS God. "property" is a bad thing to be... why? if you are happy, if you are growing and becoming better and moreso yourself day by day and more free thru being owned... how is it bad, and why?

Not for you. I am not trying to apply this to you. To me... since you asked me, about my views, based on my experiences... It's obvious that submission is NOT something that you agree with for yourself, and that's ok.

I so believe that actions speak an unbelievable amount of love. The words, "I love you".... have many different meanings. There are so many "types" of love for me. The true love that I seek is different from the type of love that you seek. That is not saying that your type of love is not true. It is different than the type I seek.

That's exactly the point. Actions speak louder than words. Imagine if every step you took in your life, every move you made, every breath you took, was out of love for someone. That is slavery to me. :) BTW, others in the BDSM community might disagree with that particular definition; but that is my personal view and always has been.

One last word issue, control.

That which serves to check, restrain, or hinder; restraint. ``Speak without control.''
Power or authority to check or restrain; restraining or regulating influence; superintendence; government; as, children should be under parental control.

It makes me very uncomfortable to be "controlled" or to control. For me it is best to learn through example, through love. Again .... this is me and the way I learn best.

Some people learn best without control; for myself, I am not a "self-disciplined" person. It helps me to have that control and guidance in my life, and it is what I crave and need. I wonder if your discomfort with the concept of submission is really you hating the idea, or being fascinated by it. ;) and, btw, a Master might use techniques of guidance by example and many other things to help teach and guide his slave(s). point is, that it is *his* choice.

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